Is homosexuality immoral? is it a choice?
09.01.05 (2:34 pm) [edit]
The first question you must addres when trying to answer this quetion is is homosexuality a choice? Now this in my opinion is easy to understand that it is NOT a choice though i am certain some people here will disagree with me. The fact is you cannot chose your sexual preferance homosexuality is a choice just like being born asian is a choice.
Stinkz:Homosexuality is obviously a choice
knn:proof? did you chose to be heterosexual? no? why not? because you grew up and saw these things called girls whom you found attractive. why is it different for a homosexual?
Now arguments provided for it is a choice usually go as followed, "it is a sin to be gay" well to that i would answer it is also a sin to eat shellfish Lev.11:10 and it is also a sin to be overweight. Is being overweight a choice? of course not.
Now I do realize that though it is not a choice to Be homosexual it IS a choice to act on homosexual urges, but since i do not believe homosexuality to be immoral why should they not act on these urges. If for example heterosexuality was considered immoral and you would be persecuted would you STILL have urges towards the opposite sex? OF COURSE. Would you still act on these arges? most likely.
I voted as not moral or immoral but not because i view homosexuality as particularitly bad but because sex as an action is neither moral nor immoral but simply a bodily function not unlike eating.
posted by: Lorien (reply)
post date: 09.01.05 (2:46 pm)
HAHA I am first to comment~o!
I think it's a choice, it's just like taste in clothes or music. Some like rap, some like pop. Some like boys, some like girls. That's all there is to it. And, as a plus, homosexual men/women won't be underage parents.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.01.05 (3:35 pm)
Reply to: Lorien
No not like that at all really you can be swayed from liking vertain music but NEVER from your sexual preferance.
posted by: Boomersangel (reply)
post date: 09.01.05 (3:41 pm)
I am not even going to go into the long drawn out explaination here because it is just not worth it. While I appreciate your youth and inexperience, I really wish that you would at the very least do a little bit of research, before you list a topic such as this. Saying homosexuality is a choice or not a choice such as being fat or not is ridiculous in a sence. Some people are fat because they eat too much, that is a choice, Some people are fat because there genes make them predisposed to be that way. People are gay or straight, or bisexual, or polysexual, or transgendered because of their genes/chromosomes. There is more and more scientific evidence of it all the time. Honestly, as difficult as our lives are as sexually different so to speak, do you honestly think we would choose this life? Do you think Matthew Shepard choose to be gay so he could be brutalized? Do you think I choose to be gay so my son could be called names? Some how I take offense at that logic.
posted by: Boomster (reply)
post date: 09.01.05 (3:58 pm)
Interesting topic, but as Melis says, you need to research it a little more. But you are right in one respect....it's not a choice. You are born predestined to be either straight, or gay...PERIOD.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.01.05 (4:22 pm)
Reply to: Boomersangel
I agree with you, why are you arguing i do NOT believe it is a choice.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.01.05 (5:29 pm)
Reply to: userfriendly
What have I stirred up here? i am all for Gay marriage and i have no quarrels with homosexuality.
What more research is there to be done? if you disagree with me post why and how.
posted by: BeepBeep (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (12:35 am)
There has been homosexuality since ancient times. We could say antique Greek people. In fact they believe gay men were perfect If Im not wrong. There is homosexuality in nature too. In fact we could be bisexual. Im talking about sex, not love. A girl for example, could have sex with other girls sometimes in her life and be hetero because she only fall in love with a man. There are bisexual persons too.
But we didnt choose which sex is the person we love.I didnt choose to be hetero. I like men and that's all. Its stupid to think that a man or a woman chose to be gay in a certain moment of his childhood.
Its not "hey, Im going to try and lets see what happen". Sexual experiences is not the same as sexuality and love.
Persons that think homosexuality is a choice are usually thinking about depravation or vice. And they usually TOLERATE it, wich is different to accept and see it as a normal thing in nature.
Then we have the religion problems. But religion see sexual experiences before marriage as wrong, so its position about sex is very outdated. As in many other subjects.
Some people say that if nature stated that procreation is only possible with a man and a woman, homosexuality is wrong. But we have pleasure with sex, so there is something more apart from procreation.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (12:41 am)
A fallacy Christians also claim that sex with a condom is wrong so with them sez for please (is there any other kind ;) )
is immoral.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (2:24 am)
Reply to: Kupov
so with them sez for please
sorry its late i meant to say sex for pleasure.
posted by: Blackaholism (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (2:31 am)
Well, I believe that it really isn't a choice..like..because you cannot control your feelings towards that certain someone regardless of his/her sex. I mean, ppl should have the right to be whatever they want to be, after all it wasn't them who chose to be born with such feelings. But religion is against it, yet I am not to speak..because I have no idea what could possibly be done to those who can't control these feelings. You can't just go like. HEY..BE straight. It won't work. It's like telling someone to like this girl or guy that he HATES...it's just so stupid. But I don't really know..much about this. But from what I know, I do agree, it is not a choice.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (3:16 am)
i dont know if you realize this but there is just as much evidence that proves that pedophilia is not a choice. that doesnt make it acceptable behavior. the whole choice/genetic thing is a moot point for this very reason.
posted by: LeananSidhe (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (6:43 am)
I'm going to speak of homosexuality here not on the basis of sex but on the basis of attraction and love. I believe it is predestined in a individuals genetic make up. A person is attracted to who their attracted to, be it males or females. To me it is not about sex, it is about love. If you are heterosexual then you will be attracted to and thus love the opposite sex. If you are homosexual then you will be attracted to and thus love people of the same sex.
Do I think it's immoral? That is like asking if I think a man and a woman falling in love is immoral. Of course not. Morality is the actions based on ethics of an individual and to say that because someone is homosexual and therefore immoral is rediculous.
On the topic of homosexual sex, I believe there are more homosexual abstainers/celebats than heterosexuals who practise it.
I don't care if someone is Gay, Straight or Australlian: Love is Love.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (11:44 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
Yes and that is why there is a second question.
Is pedophelia a choice? possibly (but it can be controlled)
Is it immoral? yes (depends)
Is homosexuality a choice.Possibly
Is it immoral.Possibly.
So have stated you think it is wrong please tell me why.
Besides a pedophelia can be a quite moral person, if they resists there urges because sex with children (MOST) of the time is sex without consent aka rape and THAT is illigel and that is immoral.
Why does God make people like this?He is against them, does he create them to be tormented? if he wants them to be happy they will pursue their urges wether or not they are immoral, (homosexuality is not) and if they do not they will be unhappy and unfulfilled, why does God make them?
posted by: RastalinMitomo (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:20 pm)
A very interesting question. Truly a hard one to answer, for I see good points from either of the two sides. Sure, it could be a choice, after all it's a preference, really. But then again you could be born with it, after all, most people don't know why they're homosexual.
So perhaps it could be both. I'd have to assume that some are doing it as a choice, after all, using the words "ALL" and "ALWAYS" proves a statement wrong, most of the time (ironic statement, isn't it?).
I'll be forced to dissect this as well in my next post, as well as a brain of a homosexual.
Thanks for the good idea. Nice looking blog, by the way.
RastMitomo
God I talk a lot.
God: Trust me, I know.
Oh yeah, don't you just love it how people get offended by posts just because you have a different view point? Damned thickheaded hypocrites. I'll burn them all.
posted by: AmyLeeZealot (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:22 pm)
It's not a choice, I'm sure of that. I'm pretty much all lesbian, and I know the reason is things that happened in my life when I was younger. I hated my dad and I always took to women. I think it's partly genetic and partly environmental. BUT it's NOT a choice.
posted by: RastalinMitomo (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:22 pm)
Oh yes, I also have to throw in this one.
What is IMMORAL? Immoral seems to be simply what people believes to be right and wrong, correct? Well in that case, who decides what's right and wrong? In my way of thinking, I don't consider anything immoral, just not my style.
Of course if it annoys me, I call it a sin.
EX: People chewing really loudly for no apparent reason. I suppose it's normal for them, but it annoys me. So they're OBVIOUSLY going to burn in hell, correct?
Just thought I'd throw that out for you to digest, bud.
posted by: AmyLeeZealot (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:23 pm)
Reply to: Boomster
you can be born into it, but if you should develop an attraction to someone of the same sex, you might want to express that emotion in sexual ways. And it is proven that no one is completely one way or the other, somewhere in the middle.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:27 pm)
Reply to: AmyLeeZealot
Enviromental stimuli you mean? yes i completely agree.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:28 pm)
Reply to: RastalinMitomo
haha classic.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:30 pm)
Reply to: AmyLeeZealot
That is ALWAYS a choice unless it is some sort of rape, you chose to have sex but you cannot ever choose your urges.
posted by: Boomersangel (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (4:31 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
so what are you saying homosexuals are to be regarded as child molesters?? That is infurriating!! Go get your statistics, and look at how many pedophiles are heterosexual white males as or priests, as compared to homosexuals, I bet the deck is stacked in your direction not mine. I don't mean in a good way either!
posted by: Bodsty (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (5:10 pm)
Sex, religion, and politics are the three things that can break up even the closest friends. I think you might have approached the topic a little too casually considering how seriously people take it. Though it is your blog and you're entitled to do so, it's kind of a given that someone will take offense.
I think sexuality is innate, and that people have no sway over who they are attracted to. I don't find it immoral.
If Christian marriage is the only constitutional civil union, then not only does it suck to be homosexual, but it also sucks to be of any other religious belief. I guess I'm out of luck as far as marriage is concerned. I'm surprised that so many people seem to disregard separation of church and state.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.02.05 (7:09 pm)
Reply to: Bodsty
Marriage was invented long before Christianity.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (9:13 am)
Reply to: Kupov
in this response you have tied happiness to fulfillment of urges but rely on a sense of morality that is without a standard outside yourself or popular opinion. this is a very dangerous path my friend and part of the reason that i brought up pedophiles. heres why:
if morality is personally subjective and happiness is tied to fulfillment of urges and theres no personal moral sense against it - then a pedophile having sex with a young child is ok in such an understanding.
i imagine everyone talking on this thread would be against such a thing. but the real question is why? bc society has deemed pedophilia wrong? why is this? historically this has not always been the case. in fact in ancient rome young boys were often sex toys. why do we in america have such strong sensibilities against pedophilia? i would really like an answer on this one.
so back to my main point - if homosexuality is acceptable based on the fact that its inborn/genetic then pedophilia must be as well. otherwise our standard is adrift and inconsistent.
this is part of the reason why subjective morality is nonsense.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (9:18 am)
Reply to: Boomersangel
i havent said that at all. yet again implications have been projected into statements that are not inherently there and a drastic conclusion has been drawn.
the point as stated above is that this issue cannot be determined by whether or not sexual preference is a choice or inborn. bc if it is then pedophilia must be just as acceptable as homosexuality.
its a completely moot argument.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (10:56 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
Why is burning witches unacceptable now?
And respond to my previous post please why does God make these people?
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (10:57 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
No it is not
Pedophelia=sex without consent
Homosexuality=sex with consent
so you have made a wrong conclusion.
posted by: Cutter (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (11:53 am)
you like playing with fire. heh heh. :p
Well, it makes for blog hits, but really, it has been done to death and back.
Are you really curious as to people's opinions, or just trying to rile people up?
My answer, by the way, is "who the hell cares!?" Really. Just live and let live.
I fuck, 'cause it feels good. I don't care if it's a damn folding chair.
;)
Rock on.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (12:28 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
k: Why is burning witches unacceptable now?
gs: i dont see how this is even related. being a wiccan is absolutely a matter of choice. as such it doesnt affect the issue at hand.
k: And respond to my previous post please why does God make these people?
gs: why does God make anyone? its not that they are created that is the problem. given the option to exist or not i imagine all of them would choose existence. the real issue then is what makes them this way?
the answer to that is sin. sin is not simply a singular act of evil. it is a prevading force in the world in the same way that disease is. ever since sin was introduced into the world it has had a corrupting affect on everything and everyone. every single person born is brought into a world corrupted by sin. this includes you and me. just as children born into a world of disease are succeptible to disease - children born into a world of sin are succeptible to sin and just as no child ever grows up naturally immune to disease no child ever grows up naturally immune to sin. at some point every child will experience disease in his/her own life and the affects that follow. likewise at some point every child will experience sin in his/her own life and the affects that follow.
k: Pedophelia=sex without consent
Homosexuality=sex with consent
so you have made a wrong conclusion.
gs: actually this is the wrong conclusion. not all acts of a pedophiliac nature are without consent. this is especially true in other countries where the age of consent is considerably lower than here in america. in some countries the age of consent is as low as 12. check it out here: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm
likewise not all acts of a homosexual nature are consensual. men having sex with men in prison is a homosexual act and is not always by consent.
but what this all comes down to is the standard of morality. if it is not universal then in truth all that can ever be said about any sexual act of any kind is that one personally disagrees with it. if we accept that sexual preference is not a matter of choice then all manner of sexual acts must be seen as equal.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (12:31 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
this is obviously not a matter of choice for you and based on the prevailing views expressed here so far - no one here can claim it is wrong. who are we to tell you you cant marry a folding chair? Ü
posted by: Cutter (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (1:02 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
Sure, it's a choice!
Look, if I were in love with a folding chair, and wanted to marry it, I'd hit the streets with a damn sign.
Like I said... Who care? Really! Does it really hurt anyone else if two guys get married? Would it REALLY hurt anyone if I married my hammer?
People should look at whether or not government should be involved in marriage at all. It completely has to do with chuch and state.
I'll marry whom, or whatever I want to marry... HOWEVER... there are laws AGAINST me if I do. No matter the intensity of my love, I'm fucked if it ain't a (legal) gal.
That's just fucked, and IST or PHOBIC.
If I'm not hurting anyone, why is it anyone's damn business?
...and don't even go to the "you're hurting yourself" place (just covering the arguments). It's MY life, and it's (supposed to be) a free country.
Good grief... here I go getting involved in this idiots argument.
Fuck who you want. Marry who you want. I don't care if it's a damn Golden Retriever. As long as it's consentual, and mutual.
posted by: Cutter (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (1:03 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
sorry about the typos. :\
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (1:13 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
i disagree with your view about doing whoever or whatever you want but i want to put that aside for a moment and just say please be careful when you go to have sex with your hammer. Ü
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (3:01 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
If it is within the age of consent then it is not pedophelia please look up pedophelia i have made the correct conclusion.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (3:02 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
Anyone can tell him he cannot have sex with a folding chair but noone will take it seriously unless it is written in _
_t-h-e B-i-b-l-e_
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (6:58 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
i am not interested in debating semantics. i am interested in having a reasonable dialogue about the facts involved in this issue. pedophilia is not about what is or is not consensual and no definition i have ever read says otherwise. but that is beside the point that a subjective morality has no room to declare any form of sexual act wrong - regardless of age. this necessarily includes any and all sexual preferences. like i stated initially - if homosexuality is genetic and that makes it okay then pedophilia (and every other sexual preference) must also be ok bc it is genetic as well. to say otherwise is completely inconsistent.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (7:00 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
the bible doesnt say anything about folding chairs or hammers. seems like a folding chair might be less dangerous but what do i know? Ü
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (7:55 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
Wrong you still somehow link pedophelia to homosexuality, unless a man RAPES another man the two are completely seperate.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (8:21 pm)
i have not once claimed that homosexuality is the same thing as pedophilia. they are different sexual preferences. a person may prefer homosexual pedophilia or heterosexual pedophilia. that is not and has never been my contention.
where they share common ground is in the area of both being genetic and bc of this the entire argument that homosexuality is acceptable bc its genetic does not work without also agreeing that pedophilia (which is also genetic) must therefore be acceptable as well. theres no way around this kupov.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (9:06 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
Nope it works fine God knows exactly what will happen when he creates these people yet he does it anyway, a bit irrisponsoble, also once again you presume that for some reason homosexuality is immoral.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (9:07 pm)
A few ways to tell it is not immoral or wrong.
Does it hurt anyone? no
Does it hurt you? no
Does it hurt god? no
Does it help Satan? no
Does it corrupt uncorupted people? no
Is it a choice? no
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.03.05 (9:48 pm)
Ways to Tell pedophelia IS bad
Does it hurt you? can if you the victom
Does it hurt people? yes
All answers the sane for all other questions
posted by: Cutter (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (5:26 am)
Didn't realize your age, Kupov. Please forgive my rudeness.
posted by: Cutter (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (5:51 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
I think that there's a difference between "acceptable" and "understandable".
Just because something is genetic, does't make it healthy, and doesn't make it demanding of acceptance in society.
Genetic or not, we choose whether or not to act on what we feel. I may WANT to marry the chair, but that doesn't mean I HAVE to marry the chair.
There's a big differnce between a wrong feeling, and a wrong action. What is the actual question about? The feeling, or the act?
posted by: DayTripper7 (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (12:19 pm)
I think that we should make babies together. We have the exact same Led Zeppelin shirt.
Find me a reason not to.
I am such an internet whore, but I really can't help it, honest.
ANYWAYS...
I do believe that being gay is a choice. Some genial influence involved in the selection of.. homosexual vs. heterosexual... of course, but there is always an option with everything.
I can be turned on my a guy... or a chick - but maybe that's liberal/experimental horny chick talking. I can choose what I want, and what wants me, so personally... I do believe there's a choice.
Being gay is not morally wrong. This is all that people have, this life, this world... so let them do what they please as long as it doesn't harm anyone else in the process.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (7:28 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
What rudeness?
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (7:30 pm)
Reply to: DayTripper7
Its a good shirt and can you imagine the children? i... am not sure the world needs our hybrids quite yet ;)
posted by: DayTripper7 (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (8:08 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
Aw, Kup, you always know what to say.
I'm not sure about that either, but they would be damn cute babies. They could wear Chuck Taylors and Pink Floyd sleepers. Aw. I'm totally not authorized to mother something yet, but aey.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (8:11 pm)
Reply to: DayTripper7
I allready do wear converse (is that spelled right) so its all good.
I want to raise half Nazi and half jewish and then set them against each other at the age of 9
posted by: DayTripper7 (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (8:15 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
Low tops or high tops? I have both in black, and I prefer my low tops better for some reason.
Heh.
That would make for a nice family. Half Nazi and half Jewish. We can call the Nazi ones Charles, and Manson... and the Jewish ones Jonas and Jesus.
Yep.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (8:22 pm)
Reply to: DayTripper7
I have only one pair black high tops, dunno low tops seem to be more girl shoes, and i hate ankle sox,
posted by: Cutter (reply)
post date: 09.04.05 (9:32 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
It was rude of me to make the comment about this debate being done to death. If you're 14, you haven't debated it to death, or watched it being debated to death. It was rude of me to assume.
posted by: MaxVel (reply)
post date: 09.05.05 (12:39 am)
Is anyone going to address graceshaker's point?
If homosexuality is morally 'OK' because it's genetic and thus not a choice, then any other sexual behaviour (if also genetically based) must logically also be morally 'OK'.
Is that what people really believe?
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 09.05.05 (8:16 pm)
Reply to: MaxVel
Graceshakers point only applies if homosexuality is the SAME as the others i have addressed it several times here are my reasons why it is false.
Pedophile=Sex with underage children and = Sex without consent.
Pedophiles ruin the childrens lives, unless the man was raped by another homosexual (or women) it does not.
If Homosexuality is NOT a choice and you are forced to be one (which I believe) it is really unfair that you are supposed to surpress these perfectly normal natural urges, unlike pedophilia which occurs only in humans.