Child Murder the Ultimate solvent
07.23.05 (5:21 pm) [edit]
According to Christianity all children under a certain age go to heaven even if they were not Christian because God reasons that they could not actually make the choice to be Christain.
So it sounds like simply killing every child just when they are a few months old would send everyone to heaven.
posted by: preceptlady (reply)
post date: 07.23.05 (5:33 pm)
Well, we would all be happier in heaven than here. Can you please state the source for your argument. I would like to know who, when or where in Christianity this was said.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 07.23.05 (7:56 pm)
its not in scripture precept lady. scripture is silent on the issue.
personally i trust God will be just and merciful but that doesnt mean im killing my children or anyone elses. even if it were true - this kind of blind pragmatism neglects the parts of scripture that teach against killing.
posted by: Farfarello (reply)
post date: 07.23.05 (8:15 pm)
keep your fingers crossed that a five year old hasn't read this and gone to fetch his fathers shot gun
posted by: ryder (reply)
post date: 07.23.05 (8:38 pm)
Well, I suppose God made the loophole so that infants would not suffer for something not their fault. But he also has not given parents the right to misuse it. Maybe it is a sin to let a child grow up and go to hell for eternity, but it is also a sin to selfishly kill a child to make it go to heaven. heaven is a reward, not the purpose of life. you do good and you're rewarded with heaven. killing a child might send both the kid and the parent to hell, because it had selfish motives.
Hey I have no proof for it, it's just my opinion.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (1:27 am)
hello Ryder,
Reply to grceshaker) if you knew without any doubt that your child would become an Atheist at 17 and then get hit by a car at 18 and thus going to hell, would you not kill your child at 16 years?
Oh and this is presuming that Everything writtn in the bible is true, which I do not beleive it to be?
reply to preceptlady) oh so you think it would be better if God sent the chuildren to Hell, actually scripture states just then considereing Hell instead of heaven os the default, what a pathetic God you people worship *shakes head*
posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (3:01 am)
I've heard it before and I really don't think it's anywhere in the Bible, though it wouldn't surprise me if it's part of some of the doctrine of some of, or at least one of the denominations. Can you imagine the meetin g ehre they argued over what age it (the cut-off point) should be?
posted by: dilerious (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (6:34 am)
and evreryone else straight to hell...lol
posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (7:40 am)
Living in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is about so very much more than going to Heaven or escaping Hell. If there were no afterlife, I would still want the quality of life (peace, joy, etc.) and personal relationship with Christ that comes from this experience.
I have a second response to this highly suspect logic: The scriptures proclaim a particular word of judgment to one who would intentionally harm a child:
"But whoever causes the downfall of one of these little ones who believe in Me—it would be better for him if a heavy millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depths of the sea!" - Matthew 18:6 (HCSB)
posted by: preceptlady (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (9:38 am)
The belief relates to the Jewish Tradition of Bar Mitzvah
Q: What is the origin and history regarding the establishment of the Bar Mitzvah. When was it established in Jewish practice and why?
A: The term "Bat/Bar Mitzvah" is one of those Hebrew phrases that is quite untranslatable. It is best defined as meaning "of the age in which a person is obliged to observe the mitzvot (commandments and laws) of the Torah and Judaism". When a boy reaches the age of thirteen or a girl reaches the age of twelve and a half, he/she is expected to assume the religious responsibilities as an adult in the Jewish community.
Bar Mitzvah dates back to Talmudic times. At the age of thirteen, a boy was called a Bar Mitzvah. He was obliged to join the adult community where he was counted in the minyan (quorum of ten that is necessary for public prayer), as well as being called up to the Torah for an aliyah, along with the other religious obligations of adulthood.
The Bar Mitzvah ceremony as we know it today originated in the pre-modern era. At that time, a boy was formally called to the Torah for an aliyah. Later on, in the sixteenth century, he was assigned the last aliyah called the maftir portion, which was then followed by the young adult chanting of the prophetic portion called the haftarah.
UNTIL the child is able to observe the mitzvot (commandments and laws) of the Torah and Judaism, they are not held accountable for sins committed.
I hope you understand this! It is important that you understand so this issue is resolved.
God Bless you!
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (1:40 pm)
Please preceptlady do not ebd your posts that way it will offend the non Christians, thank you.
Morever it offends me considering you simply come here to spout religious crap, if I may ask you to leave.
posted by: CrazyBeautiful3 (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (1:58 pm)
crazy!
posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (3:14 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
If and when I come across as spouting "religious crap" or condemning or self-righteous, if you would challenge me on it, I would honestly appreciate it. I want to dialogue, especially with folks like yourself who come from a different perspective. I think you have every right to your opinion and challenges, even when they strongly disagree with me. I can learn from you, and you from me. None of us have the truth all wrapped up.
posted by: forevernameless (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (5:23 pm)
Here's what I believe;
God is a fair judge. I believe that He judges all people individually, for their hearts and their lives, not their ages. I believe he takes everything into account. We as humans cannot know how God judges children that young, but just need to trust His judgement and accept that we don't know.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (6:42 pm)
reply to Pastor Dave) I have never heard you soput any religious crap and I strongly suggest you take your educated opinion to In my opinion.org (thumb up)
reply to forevernameless) yeah right and judging someone simply on the grounds that they are Christian is fair *rolls eyes*
posted by: LadyVenom (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (8:02 pm)
Religion Kills, Spirituality does not...think what ya want...no one has come back to tell me anything..so I just do my own thing..guess that makes me agnostic or something like that. I need PROOF..undeniable proof. Too Much?...
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.24.05 (10:03 pm)
Very good lady venom i agree with everything yuo said
posted by: ryder (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (3:08 am)
Hey Kupov,
I guess no one here has really addressed the issue.
Your example of 16 and 17 isn't applicable because the kid would have been baptized by then.
But suppose, any child below the age of 1 year would automatically go to heaven because it wasn't already given a choice of religion. That's only God's way of giving a loophole so as not to affect these infants.
If a parent misuses this loophole, I think both would go to hell. Because the parent has committed murder for a selfish purpose in the name of love for the child (i don't think this act would be selfless, i think it's high selfishness), and the child has died a violent death and been tainted by the parents' so called good intentions.
But of course, this is if you follow the Bible. I am a combination of an atheist and an agnostic, and definitely not a member of any mainstream religion.
And, that Bar Mitzvah thing may be similar to this problem, but I don't see how it sheds light on the solution or truth to this issue.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (4:17 pm)
1.Do not listen to preceptlady'
2.agnostic atheist, so am I
3.even if the 16 or 17 year old person became a pagan at 18 and then was hit by a truch would he go to Hell? According to Christianity yes, now lets suppose the mother knew without a doubt that this would happen, not killing her child would be terribly selfish.
posted by: gamerchick (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (4:31 pm)
hmmmmmm, interesting blog. and interesting views. i see you like foamy, and guess what...that means i like you.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (4:34 pm)
Ha im not a rampaging squirrel...am i lol thanks for commenting.
PS. I love foamy too
posted by: sweetsue (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (5:03 pm)
Reply to: MandyNJess4Life
I am with you Mandy..you need to move on Kupov with this subject as you have posted it enough times.God be with you and Bless You!
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (5:52 pm)
where have I posted this subject before?
posted by: gamerchick (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (9:18 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
have you ever heard of Johnny the Homocidal Maniac? if you like Foamy, i think youll like this guy. you can get his comic books anywhere Hot Topic is. online as well.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.25.05 (10:43 pm)
Yes I have very funny
posted by: VancouverBound (reply)
post date: 07.26.05 (1:00 am)
Anyone who buys that logic should have no problem following the bread recipe found in Ezekiel 4:12.
Enjoy!
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.26.05 (3:04 am)
what? you do not like my logic? from a statistical point of view it makes perfect sense, so do not make Christian robots unless you want all children to die, I AM SERIOUS
posted by: Farfarello (reply)
post date: 07.28.05 (9:59 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
hey.. that actually makes sense..
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.29.05 (11:02 am)
I know, I always make sense if not in a crazy way.
posted by: mmmkay (reply)
post date: 07.29.05 (11:49 am)
But the gift is in the persons choice to do so..not just the fact that they did (go to heaven to be w/him)
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.29.05 (12:33 pm)
I would argue that 80 years of free will and then an eternity of hell is not a gift but a curse, Why do we not have the free will to choose to never go to earth and thus stay in Heaven?
posted by: Acorn (reply)
post date: 07.30.05 (7:37 pm)
For once, you're right. and i agree with MandNJess. Pleas talk about something like how the heck you're gonna go to hell. that's another comment. write that down.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 07.30.05 (7:40 pm)
For once? well since nothing I say here is at all fact it is wrong to say i am right just like it is wrong to say any rekigion is right., and stop the hell threats they grow old.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 08.05.05 (5:16 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
you said: if you knew without any doubt that your child would become an Atheist at 17 and then get hit by a car at 18 and thus going to hell, would you not kill your child at 16 years?
gs: are you asking me if i would force something on him that he didnt want? aside from the fact that such knowledge is impossible for me to have id say that i would not. the natural response is probably going to be 'so you would let him go to hell?' to which i reply in advance - my goal as a parent is to do two things basically. 1) teach my children how to think and reason and 2) introduce them to God.
we can discuss as many hypotheticals as you like but in the end they are just that. they get us no closer to understanding each other really and they generally fail to present viable realities with consideration for all the factors involved.
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 08.05.05 (7:55 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
So you teaching you child to reason driv them away from Christ? to allow your child to live before he is hit by a car is selfish indeed.
posted by: graceshaker (reply)
post date: 08.05.05 (8:50 pm)
Reply to: Kupov
to allow my child to make his own choice is selfish?
how is it that given absolute knowledge of an event in the future killing my child would be selfless?
posted by: ME MYSELF AND I (reply)
post date: 08.08.05 (11:04 am)
I love weddings! Drinks all around!
Thats off topic though, i agree with kupov..... PARTY AT MY HOUSE
posted by: ellliiet (reply)
post date: 08.10.05 (11:55 am)
that is not tru trust us basically the bible tells us wat we need 2 no and we cant no the things he didn't put in the bible there is nothin in the bible about this all we no is that sin is inherited so as soon as u r conceived u are sinful like everyone but u can be saved by jesus if u follow him babies can't follow him so we don't no wat happens but god is just so he wouldn't just send em all to hell u clearly don't no wat ur talkinb bout
posted by: Kupov (reply)
post date: 08.10.05 (3:41 pm)
Reply to: ellliiet
I could not understand that, please repeat your self with proper grammer and spelling of "You" and mabye throw in an Intelligent Opinion.